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Offline Stormpr00ter

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PS4 Announced by Sony
« on: 21 February 2013, 12:12: PM »
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-21526450

Looks like it's essentially a PC in a box with PS controllers.

Probably good news for PC games development as there will be very little needing to be dumbed-down for porting between platforms.

Depends on what Microsoft bring with their next-gen console.

Offline Stu038

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Re: PS4 Announced by Sony
« Reply #1 on: 21 February 2013, 12:58: PM »
Hmm still not natively backwards compatible allowing for all the quiet re-releases a couple of months after launch, a 32 bit AMD processor and an undefined AMD gfx chip.

They're not convincing me that's any thing like a supercharged PC.

But if it reduces the current impact on developing games for PCs then that's got to be a good thing and if they want to try to emulate us by referring to themselves as a supercharged PC then again that can only be a positive, after all envy is a terrible thing :D
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Offline Stormpr00ter

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Re: PS4 Announced by Sony
« Reply #2 on: 21 February 2013, 01:08: PM »
Hmm still not natively backwards compatible allowing for all the quiet re-releases a couple of months after launch, a 32 bit AMD processor and an undefined AMD gfx chip.

They're not convincing me that's any thing like a supercharged PC.

Depends on how many cores and what the instruction cache sizes will be, and the operating frequencies - and of course the GPUs. I don't think there is much power to be gained from going 64 bit as opposed to 32 bit - from what I remember of CPU architecture the number of bits basically increases the number of possible instructions available and increases the native addressing range - they may do cleverer stuff these days by combining instructions (operators) with data (operands) all in one go, and I can see that improving performance - but dunno - I haven't looked at CPU architecture since the old Intel 80286.

But if it reduces the current impact on developing games for PCs then that's got to be a good thing and if they want to try to emulate us by referring to themselves as a supercharged PC then again that can only be a positive, after all envy is a terrible thing :D

We can only hope it helps improve the games we get on PC.

Offline zingle

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Re: PS4 Announced by Sony
« Reply #3 on: 21 February 2013, 01:09: PM »
they may well do the same sort of thing, Intel and Nvidia maybe we will see a resurgence  in pc gaming I bloody hope so

Offline zingle

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Re: PS4 Announced by Sony
« Reply #4 on: 21 February 2013, 01:12: PM »
Just because it says it is X86 does not mean it is 32 bit. X86 refers to the Architecture it become synonymous with 32 bit that was the limit at the time . It still most likely is capable of 64 bit instruction sets

remember the 286? this was only 16 bit.
« Last Edit: 21 February 2013, 01:18: PM by zingle »

Offline Stormpr00ter

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Re: PS4 Announced by Sony
« Reply #5 on: 21 February 2013, 01:15: PM »
they may well do the same sort of thing, Intel and Nvidia maybe we will see a resurgence  in pc gaming I bloody hope so

There certainly seems to be a reasonable shift in PC games development towards crowd-funding and private funding (Elite: Dangerous and Star Citizen being two examples). It seems that games developers are getting tired of greedy over-conservative publishers calling the shots - hopefully this trend will continue, and we sill begin to get really great PC games again, right on the cutting edge, above and beyond what the consoles can provide.
Mind you, it does mean we will get a load of rubbish too - but you have to take the rough with the smooth :D

Offline Stormpr00ter

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Re: PS4 Announced by Sony
« Reply #6 on: 21 February 2013, 01:18: PM »
Just because it says it is X86 does not mean it is 32 bit. X86 refers to the Architecture it become synonymous with 32 bit that was the limit at the time . It still most likely is capable of 64 bit instruction sets maybe even 128 bit which Intels chips are capable of now iirc

Not sure about that - if the BBC have just reported it incorrectly, then that may be so, I have always seen 64 bit processors written up as x64 - at least that is how Microsoft classify them for their OS and software.

I guess I'm saying if I see x86 - I assume it's 32 bit, though strictly speaking it could also be 16 bit.

Offline zingle

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Re: PS4 Announced by Sony
« Reply #7 on: 21 February 2013, 01:31: PM »
X86 dates back to 1978 and chips before the 286 its all about the class of instruction set nothing else

IA32 is the 32 bit generation of the X86 cpu
IA64 /Intel 64 is Intels 64 bit instruction set for X86 cpu
AMD64 is AMDs 64 bit instruction set for the X86 cpu

This information is correct btw ;)

Offline zingle

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Re: PS4 Announced by Sony
« Reply #8 on: 21 February 2013, 01:37: PM »
According to this ( dunno if true or not ) but the PS4 has 8 gig of ram meaning it can not be a 32 bit CPU

http://www.vg247.com/2013/02/20/ps4-has-8gb-of-ram-almost-2-teraflops-of-computational-performance/

Offline Stu038

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Re: PS4 Announced by Sony
« Reply #9 on: 21 February 2013, 01:38: PM »
Depends on how many cores and what the instruction cache sizes will be, and the operating frequencies

It will be K6s mate  :rofl:, rumour has it AMD have got millions of em they never sold when Intel beat them to the punch with the Pentium and they had to completely redesign the K7 Athalon to try to catch up again. Urine extracting aside I seem to recall the K6-2 did some very posh stuff with its multiplyers effectively making them a dual core processor a couple of years before the proper ones came out.

I don't think there is much power to be gained from going 64 bit as opposed to 32 bit - from what I remember of CPU architecture the number of bits basically increases the number of possible instructions available and increases the native addressing range - they may do cleverer stuff these days by combining instructions (operators) with data (operands) all in one go, and I can see that improving performance - but dunno - I haven't looked at CPU architecture since the old Intel 80286.

Its a lot of years since I read up on this stuff too but don't forget its not a linear increase though mate, the next jump for instance isn't likely to be 128 bit but 256bit.
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Offline zingle

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Re: PS4 Announced by Sony
« Reply #10 on: 21 February 2013, 01:40: PM »
http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/gaming/news/a460582/ps4-hardware-specifications-in-full-blu-ray-usb-30-confirmed.html

yes 8 Gig of GDDR5 so thats it then deffo a 64 bit chip as 32 bit can not address that

Offline Stu038

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Re: PS4 Announced by Sony
« Reply #11 on: 21 February 2013, 02:01: PM »
According to this ( dunno if true or not ) but the PS4 has 8 gig of ram meaning it can not be a 32 bit CPU

http://www.vg247.com/2013/02/20/ps4-has-8gb-of-ram-almost-2-teraflops-of-computational-performance/

That article states an 8 core 64bit architecture so the discussion is moot :( Valid point about the assumptions though Zing. Its one I make constantly even though I should know better. As Storm pointed out its what becomes accepted as the norm rather than whats correct that becomes used. I've just been too lazy to work it out I guess :D

Interesting what that article goes on to say about the RAM retaining your game information even when powered off. Does that mean that unless you unplug it completely certain parts of it never power down, is it a posh EPROM type of thing or is it simply caching it to the HDD and allowing the RAM to act as a buffer?
« Last Edit: 21 February 2013, 02:03: PM by Stu038 »
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Offline Stormpr00ter

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Re: PS4 Announced by Sony
« Reply #12 on: 21 February 2013, 02:02: PM »
X86 dates back to 1978 and chips before the 286 its all about the class of instruction set nothing else

IA32 is the 32 bit generation of the X86 cpu
IA64 /Intel 64 is Intels 64 bit instruction set for X86 cpu
AMD64 is AMDs 64 bit instruction set for the X86 cpu

This information is correct btw ;)

Cheers for the clarification - I only really look at it from a software point of view - and at the moment 64bit software (excepting the OS) is a pain to work with - simply because there are still many 32 bit cpus and operating systems in use.

We have an option in Visual studio to compile 'For any CPU' - but it doesn't work consistently, especially when referencing 3rd party components - other options available are x86(32bit) and x64(64bit) - this is where my confusion in terminology comes from.

Offline Stormpr00ter

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Re: PS4 Announced by Sony
« Reply #13 on: 21 February 2013, 02:09: PM »
According to this ( dunno if true or not ) but the PS4 has 8 gig of ram meaning it can not be a 32 bit CPU

http://www.vg247.com/2013/02/20/ps4-has-8gb-of-ram-almost-2-teraflops-of-computational-performance/

I've often wondered about this when it comes to RAM - if it's a 32 bit processor, it can read 4 bytes at a time (in theory) so for maximum granularity it (a 32 bit processor) could theoretocally get at a bit less than 16GB of RAM - if the RAM was organised into 4 byte sectors - just like hard drives have 4K and 16K sectors so that much more than the native addressing range can be stored.

Offline Stormpr00ter

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Re: PS4 Announced by Sony
« Reply #14 on: 21 February 2013, 02:11: PM »
Its a lot of years since I read up on this stuff too but don't forget its not a linear increase though mate, the next jump for instance isn't likely to be 128 bit but 256bit.

Yeah, I lost the plot around 1994, nowadays I just want the CPU to work and be fast :D

Offline MovedGoalPosts

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Re: PS4 Announced by Sony
« Reply #15 on: 21 February 2013, 02:23: PM »
Blimey, geeks rule :D

All I'd want to know is - will the console be a worthy successor to the PS3?
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Offline Stormpr00ter

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Re: PS4 Announced by Sony
« Reply #16 on: 21 February 2013, 02:26: PM »
Blimey, geeks rule :D

All I'd want to know is - will the console be a worthy successor to the PS3?

Looking at the specs - it seems equivalent to a mid->high end current gaming PC - not bleeding edge, but pretty good.
It will get old quite quickly though (2 - 3 years)

Offline Stu038

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Re: PS4 Announced by Sony
« Reply #17 on: 21 February 2013, 02:28: PM »
I've often wondered about this when it comes to RAM - if it's a 32 bit processor, it can read 4 bytes at a time (in theory) so for maximum granularity it (a 32 bit processor) could theoretocally get at a bit less than 16GB of RAM - if the RAM was organised into 4 byte sectors - just like hard drives have 4K and 16K sectors so that much more than the native addressing range can be stored.

To be honest I never sat and did the maths and probably couldn't any more :D but I always assumed that it was more of a coding issue than a physical one, I don't seem to recall having unix based OS's having similar problems to windows based ones, but then it was 1990 when I did the theory originally and 64bit computing was talked about in hushed circles by the real geeks :D. Hell we were discussing how to build network stacks to grab the token  :-X
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Offline Stormpr00ter

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Re: PS4 Announced by Sony
« Reply #18 on: 21 February 2013, 02:36: PM »
I've often wondered about this when it comes to RAM - if it's a 32 bit processor, it can read 4 bytes at a time (in theory) so for maximum granularity it (a 32 bit processor) could theoretocally get at a bit less than 16GB of RAM - if the RAM was organised into 4 byte sectors - just like hard drives have 4K and 16K sectors so that much more than the native addressing range can be stored.

To be honest I never sat and did the maths and probably couldn't any more :D but I always assumed that it was more of a coding issue than a physical one, I don't seem to recall having unix based OS's having similar problems to windows based ones, but then it was 1990 when I did the theory originally and 64bit computing was talked about in hushed circles by the real geeks :D. Hell we were discussing how to build network stacks to grab the token  :-X

It's a simple formula :)

2 to the power of the no of bits, then multiplied by the sector size - in this case, the number of bits divided by 8 (to get bytes).

For working out storage on hard disks it's the same - if you want a ridiculously large drive, you have to sacrifice granularity of storage (increase sector size) which also increases fragmentation and reduces performance. E.g. you could have 32k sectors(which would increase maximum storage capacity from the standard 4k sectors by a factor of 8 ), but 4 x 1k files would take up 128k of disk space instead of 16k. There's always a trade off.

Offline zingle

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Re: PS4 Announced by Sony
« Reply #19 on: 21 February 2013, 02:39: PM »
any of the older members the arguments I had with Richard over multi core CPUs ? He said they would never be used by gamers lol